Interview conducted by Journalist Mark
Blackham,
I had been trying to secure an interview with the Human League over 1994,
wanting to talk with them about the process of making the much-rumored
album.
They were being guarded jealously by East West records, and it wasn't
until early 1995 that I managed to get to talk with Susan Sulley.
I began the chat by thanking her for drawing the short straw out of
the three of them to talk with me.
Mark: Doing the publicity rounds must get pretty weird after a while -
talking with a media people you don't know, but who seem to know you
intimately.
Susan: I do it all the time - I'm used to it by now.
I was talking with someone from Brazil recently - so don't worry about it.
Mark: Is the album being released there
then - in Brazil?
Susan: Well, the album will go worldwide.
It doesn't come out in America for a month or so, but it's going all over.
Mark: That must be strange - touching
places you've never been - have you
ever been to Brazil?
Susan: No I've never been to Brazil unfortunately - there's a
few places...
you're from New Zealand aren't you?
Mark: ...yes, that's right...
Susan: We've never been to New Zealand. We've been to
Australia,
but never to New Zealand.
I remember about fifteen years ago, when you were touring the world
after "Dare" the visit to New Zealand was possible, but it never
happened...
You know, we would like to go to many places we don't end up going to -
but there's always reasons why - you know - when the tour is booked, you
get committed to going certain places but then the rest of the time
around it gets filled in - and it means that even though you're only a
stones throw away from a country you can't get there - it's just how it
goes.
Mark: So what are the plans for touring
after "Octopus" is released?
Susan: Well, we hope to. It's something that we really
want to do.
We've sorta just about got a new manager - we've not had a manager
for about eight years now - and he really wants to tour as well.
The old record company never wanted us to - they thought it was better
to just promote and not to tour.
We've noticed that people whose careers have gone really well are people
who continually tour as well - so that's something we want to do. But
it's a case of getting it together - so if it's going to happen it won't
be until the end of the summer at the earliest.
(They toured in October / November 1995 - MB)
Mark: The career - you seem very
determined that the Human League and your
music is going to be a long term career - after fifteen years it must be
- but I've noticed a new determination not to let it end, as it has
threatened to many times.
Susan: Well, we never saw the Human League as a short term
thing.
It was never ever like that with any of us.
The people that we admired - the people like Roxy Music and
David Bowie, and people like that - were people that had long term
careers - they didn't go into it for just - you know - fifteen minutes
of fame.
We never went into it for the fame aspect - that was always the
secondary thing. We've never courted publicity.
It's something that doesn't really interest me. That's why we're only
in the press when we've got something to promote. You won't find us
in the press when we haven't got any product out - you know?
But we always saw the Human League as a long term thing - and after
fifteen years we've proved that you can actually do it for that long.
I think it gets into your blood. Ten years ago I used to laugh when
people would say the Rolling Stones are doing another album, and I'd
be thinking "Isn't it time they gave up?" - but now I understand why
they do it - they do it because there isn't anything else like it
- and no matter how much you try to go off and do other things - the
thing that gets you back together again all the time is the music
- because it's what you really believe in.
Mark: So did you go off and do other
things?
Susan: No - unfortunately, the Human League takes up all our
time.
Even when we're not having records out - because we haven't had a manager,
there's all the business side of things to run.
We have a studio in Sheffield.
And you know, it's like, the time gets taken up. So no, we don't really
do anything else apart from be in the Human League.
Mark: I don't really want to go back over
the past - I know you've
probably already talked about that quite a bit - but even in the bad old
days - the mid eighties, when Phil went and did that stuff with Giorgio
Moroder...
Susan: That only took two weeks - it didn't even take two
weeks.
Phil went over to Munich and I think he sung for five days and then came
home.
That was not a big... that was something that, you know, like Philip was
just a huge Giorgio Moroder fan. That wasn't a bad period, that was a
really good period. I never could see that as a bad period. It was
like recognition to a certain extent of what Philip had been saying for
a long time - you know - that Giorgio really wanted to work with him and
everything. That wasn't a bad period at all.
Mark: You didn't make it into Band Aid...
I'm not sure whether you wanted
to...
Susan: What happened was, as per normal, all the time you get
asked to do
things. And all the time you get people ringing up and saying "will you
do this record, David Bowie is going to do it... blah, blah, blah." and
you always said "oh yeah, we'll believe it..." and they never came off.
And the thing with Band Aid was that they only asked Philip to do it -
and Philip said that he wouldn't do it unless they asked me and Joanne.
And because they didn't ask me and Joanne... although as it turned out
there were crossed wires - they had apparently asked all of us to do it.
That was why the Band Aid thing got turned down.
One of the mistakes, I think.
Mark: Have you got sick of being asked
about the past?
It's what everyone seems to focus on.
Susan: Well I think it's about time that people - I mean -
there's a big sort of revival thing going on in Britain at the moment
and it's sorta making me fell a bit sick now.
You know, people, for some strange reason, and I'm sure other groups
go through it all the time, that they just can't accept you for what
you are. You know, they still want to lump us in 1980, but you know,
it's 1995. We're back with a top ten hit in Britain and most of Europe.
That's not a bad thing. We obviously can't be just an eighties group,
but they won't let us. I think that it's just easiest for certain
journalists who like to put you in little categories.
We're not a group of the past, we're a group of the future,
and I think this album's proved it.
Mark: It seems like everyone is pleased to
have you back - even the NME
and Melody Maker are excitedly anticipating your return - like old
friends. Is that the type of reaction you expected?
Susan: It probably sounds horrible to say this, but I don't
think
those things matter.
I think they're not important. I think the British music press
used to be very influential. Its darlings of the press at the moment
are Oasis and Blur, who don't sell a record in America. They're not
important - those newspapers don't mean anything. If they like ya,
fine, but if they don't it really doesn't matter because it ain't going
to stop people buying your records.
For instance, you know, those sort of music papers, they hate groups
like 2 Unlimited and Ace of Bass - Ace of Bass sold more albums world
wide than any other artist in 1994. So does it mean that those
music-papers matter? - I think not.
It's nice that people like us, and that people do have a soft spot for
us - that's nice - but ultimately, I really don't think it matters.
Mark: I was in my local newsagents the
other day, and I heard the
shop-keeper humming to a Human League song on the radio. Despite all
the synthesizer / technology themes which are connected with the Human
League, you seem in many ways to be an everyday-person's sort of band.
Is that deliberate, or does it just happen?
Susan: We always wanted to be a pop group.
It was something that we all loved.
We all were saying that we loved Abba before it was trendy. Now it's
sort of embarrassing to say it because people think you're jumping on
the bandwagon. But you know, I was buying Abba records when I was 14
and 15. I love pop music. We always wanted to be like that.
The thing about that sort of music is that you reach a lot of people.
We reach people all over the world - and that's what's the most
important thing. You know, we just use the technology to our advantage,
and we've always used the synthesizer because it's the only instrument
that any of us understand.
Mark: Is Philip trying to reclaim the
synthpop crown?
Because for a while there in the late-eighties the Human League seemed
to be disavowing synthesisers...
Susan: Oh no, I don't think we've ever did. I think if
anything, the
late-eighties was a time when we rediscovered them. What happened was
we made Dare in 1980 - and we made a point of making an album with just
synthesisers, drum machines and vocals. Then we made Hysteria, with
loads of acoustic instruments. Then we did the Jam and Lewis album in
'86 (Crash) with Jimmy and Terry - that was like an American-based soul
album. And we thought "why are we doing this? Why don't we just get
back to doing what we're good at? And what we're good at and
understand, is synthesisers." And so by the late 1980s we got back on
that track. The last album that we made - Romantic - which wasn't a
commercial success - was actually good for us, because it got us back to
thinking and doing what we want to do. We can't make a soul album.
We
can do it, and we've proved that we can do it, but we ain't going to do
it any better than the SOS Band, or Janet Jackson - so why bother
competing?
But in the same way that if Janet Jackson tried to do a synthesizer
album like we make, she probably wouldn't be able to do it as well -
although she'd make a bloody good job of it. We found a niche that we
think that we're good at.
Mark: Despite the glamour aspect that's promoted for the Human
League,
you come across as very down-to-earth, even frank.
Susan: Well, we are - we live in Sheffield - you know -
what would you expect? People have got a really wrong impression of us...
Mark: Well, you're the type of band that
isn't afraid to say you are
terrified about the reaction you might get with this "come-back"...
that's not something your usual music star would ever say...
Susan: Well, I think they probably do to the pals.
And even if they don't say it to the pals - they think it to themselves.
We all know it ain't going to last. We don't live in cuckoo land.
We understand. We've been doing this for fifteen years.\
It could all collapse tomorrow.
Most people have different ways of dealing with it. The glamour aspect
isn't important. The way that you look - to a certain extent - has to
be slightly important. You can't go on a video without any make-up or
with dirty clothes. You're competing with Madonna and Michael Jackson -
you have to make the effort. You have to make the effort when you go on
TV. You have to make the effort when you have photos taken. 'Cause
if
you don't, you're not doing the best that you can for your job, and the
most important thing to us is for the Human League to succeed. You know,
if it became very trendy to stand in the middle of the motorway on your
head, we would probably do it. If we thought it would help the long
term career of the Human League, we would do it.
But we're not interested in self-publicity. We don't go to show-biz
parties. My friends are people that live in Sheffield. My friends
aren't people that are in a band who live in London. I don't mix with
those people - it's not because I don't like them - I don't know them.
How would I know if they were nice people or not? They are probably
fabulous. But I don't know them. I mix with my friends. I'm
not
interested in show-biz parties because that's not what the Human League
is about. The Human League is about communicating with people - and
that entails selling records and all the other things that go with it.
It doesn't mean - you know - going down to the Ministry of Sound and
having a few beers with whoever... that doesn't interest me at all.
Mark: It seems as if you are increasingly becoming the
front-person for
the band. People used to concentrate on Phil.
Susan: No that's not true - I've always talked more than
Philip!
It's just that the media are so, erm, sexist - let's be truthful here.
The media are so sexist they just recall normally what Philip says.
It's changing now.
I hasten to add it's not quite the same anymore - although it's
still a battle, and I presume it always will be - because I'm a woman.
For a long time the media just wouldn't accept me or Joanne. They
didn't understand why we were there. They understood why the lads were
there - because the lads were the musicians - you know. They are
starting to understand now - we're starting to get to them. They
realise that after fifteen years, and we're still here, that we must
have something.
Mark: Do you think you and Joanne had an
influence on improving the
acceptability of women in music?
Susan: It's a really strange thing.
It was the way I was brought up, and the way that Joanne was brought
up - was that everyone was equal.
Joanne's family, and my family, were run by our mothers, not our fathers.
Our mothers ran all the money side of things - just ran the whole
household. Our fathers just did the occasional bit of gardening.
That's how it was.
When we joined the Human League I thing there was a slight twist in
society - and people were starting to accept women more... that they
were equal... that they did do as much. I don't want to be more
superior than a man - I just want to be equally treated. It's a hard
job. It's a hard task I'm sure that you speak to any female in pop
music - I presume that if you're a black woman in pop music it's even
harder. From my point of view, it's very very difficult. I'm from up
North as well. I've got a quirky accent, and they think that makes me
stupid. I'm a lot of things, but I ain't stupid.
People have ways of making you sound stupid - it doesn't bother me
anymore - it used to. I'm not as sensitive - I'm still very sensitive -
but I'm not as sensitive as I used to be.
Mark: Is that problem tied up in the
London-centric music industry?
Susan: No, not just London - it's actually Western Europe.
Certainly in places in Germany and Scandinavia, they really can't
understand why anyone would want to talk to me and Joanne.
It is a big battle. It's much worse in Europe than it is in England.
I can't imagine what it will be like when we get to America.
Maybe America is more open about things like that - it always
was before - but we'll have to wait and see.
Mark: Do you get across to Europe often?
Susan: We're always there. We're off again next week.
This is like the first week where we've not actually been away.
We just came back from Italy on Sunday, and we've got a week at home.
But we'll be doing lots of interviews.
We did a TV thing here in the studio yesterday, and we've got a
TV thing here tomorrow.
Mark: Do you enjoy intensity of media
attention?
Susan: Ahhh, it's a bit of a shock at first.
It's a bit of a shock when you haven't done very much for a long time.
You just have to get into it.
You know that the only way you're going to sell the record is for people
to take a bit of notice of you. The only way they're going to take a
bit of notice of you is if you go to where they live - you know. You
have to do it, it's part of the job.
Now, promoting your record is as important as making it.
It didn't use to be like that, but it is now-days.
Mark: How long will you have to spend
promoting the album?
Susan: We've got at least seven weeks in America.
We've got to go to America the last week in April, the last week in May,
all of June, and the first week in July - so that's quite a hefty amount
of promotion we've got to do in the US.
But you know, they've got very high hopes for the single and album in
America, and it has always been, surprisingly to us, one of our biggest
markets. We've always done really really well in America.
We've had two number one singles in the States - can't really knock it -
we've got to do as much as we can to promote it.
Mark: What have you been doing personally
over the past couple of years?
Susan: Nothing. The Human League is my whole life.
I don't really have a life outside it.
Everything I believe in is tied up in this group really.
Everything else is secondary.
Mark: How does it work? Are you
always in the studio with Philip,
or does he write the songs and you pop in later...?
Susan: What normally happens is someone tinkers about on one of
the drum
machines or one of the synthesizers, and someone else adds a bit, and
then it gets put away, and then we think "oh, we've got to make an album
now so we better get those few little bits of backing track out".
There's never really a time when someone comes in and says "here, this
is a finished song". The songs that you hear on the finished CD don't
end up being like that 'til right at the mixing stage. They change
continually.
The most significant thing with making this album was the producer. We
had the best producer for the Human League - someone who understood us,
didn't want to change anything about us - and he just made it the album
that it is. It wouldn't have been anywhere near as good if Ian hadn't
been involved in it.
Mark: Your singing has vastly improved -
you must have been working on that?
Susan: No , not at all.
We've been doing it for a long time, and when you've been doing something
for a long time you normally get better don't you?
Both Joanne and I have got a lot more confidence.
Mark: I used to be able to easily
distinguish between you two on the
records - I can't anymore!
Susan: I don't understand how people say that - both Joanne and
I
are baffled.
It is so obvious to me when I'm singing, and so very obvious when
Joanne's singing. I sing "One Man in My Heart" - that's my song.
Mark: Are you looking forward to that one being released as a
single?
Susan: No - I'm shit scared! 'Cause I'm scared, it's the
biggest risk
the Human League have ever took. We've never had a single where Philip...
what, he sings four lines on it... and they're not even featured at all.
It's a risk, it's a big risk.
It's a sort of little heart-rending song really - people are either
going to love it or they're gonna hate it. They're not going to like it
because it's fantastically sung. They're not going to like it because
it's musically wonderful. It's all very simple - but that's all what
it's about. It's still a risk - people just want the Human League to be
all three of us - and not me featured more. You know what I'm saying?
We don't know. It is a risk. We didn't decide on it as a single - it
was the record company - we've left everything up to them.
Mark: I hate to bring nostalgia back into
the conversation, but I reckon
the start to "These are the Days" is, ironically, very similar to the
first single you guys ever did together, "Boys and Girls".
Susan: God - I don't even...You know - that's the first time
anyone's said
that. I'll have to put that to everyone when I see them all later on.
It's not intentional. But it [These are the Days] is a swipe at
nostalgia. We are saying don't look back, the past wasn't as great as
you think, the future can be better, you can only make it better, but
you can't make it better by sitting harping on how wonderful the past
was.
Mark: As for the glamour, you and Joanne
once said that Phil had terrible
dress sense and you needed to dress him - do you still do that?
Susan: No! That probably wasn't true - we lie a lot you
know...
Mark: I've become aware of that over the
years...!
Susan: We tell an awful lot of bloody lies when we do
interviews...!
erm - no, no one's ever dressed Philip. Philip wouldn't.... it's like
Philip or Joanne trying to dress me - all hell would let lose! No
Philip dresses himself - he always has done!
Mark: You have always seemed to be
yourself - not manufactured....
Susan: It wouldn't work you see. We're not like that.
We are what we are.
The idea of someone trying to sort of choreograph us - make us dance in
a certain way on TV - we'd all be laughing, because we couldn't do it.
It's not what we're about. In the same way that if someone started to
say "you've got to wear these sorta clothes" - we'd just be looking at
them, like...!
It's funny because at the record company - you know that everyone now
has a stylist - and because we won't use one the record company now
refers to it as the "S-word" when we're involved.
What you see is what you get. If you see us on a night out in Sheffield
you'd see us looking exactly the same as you'd see us on the video.
It's not contrived - it's just the way that we are.
Mark: Getting back to the "lies in
interviews" theme.... there's sometimes
a perception that Phil never takes them seriously, talking off the top
of his head...
Susan: We all talk off the top of our heads sometimes -
you can't just pick on Philip - we all do it.
Anyway, you can say something that you desperately believe in that day,
and the next day you might watch a TV programme which completely changes
your mind on something.
Mark: Hey, thanks for your time.
I've really enjoyed speaking with you -
good luck with the album and singles.
Susan: That's OK, thanks very much.